tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post611368190012534116..comments2023-10-02T08:28:06.724-05:00Comments on Ecology of Absence: Demolition Imminent at Page and Kingshighway?Michael R. Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17262548806079447404noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-19774941404144490642008-02-27T17:55:00.000-06:002008-02-27T17:55:00.000-06:00And so we have to get to work showing how these hi...And so we have to get to work showing how these historic artifacts should be seen as valuable to the revitalization. I personally believe these corner buildings, especially the ones in such salvageable condition, are indispensible. Why remove what already represents one the best architectural resolutions to urban intersection corners, only to at best replace or at worst dimish the current value? Illustrating how these historic buildings can be incorporated into new urban infill, block by block, by providing the new infill with cues to architectural form and language and thus complemented appropriately.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-38152708010597683912008-02-27T12:32:00.000-06:002008-02-27T12:32:00.000-06:00Sickening waste. If informed planners and "civic ...Sickening waste. If informed planners and "civic leaders" agree that scorched-earth urban renewal approaches were a disaster, why can't they get hip to the idea that continuous erosion of the fabric with spot demolitions is, ultimately, just as wasteful and unnecessary? It's frustrating that we have to have the same debate, decade after decade, building after building, neighborhood after neighborhood, until whoooooops, in the words of Papa Hemingway, "St. Louis is a good place...to be from." Are we just incapable of learning, even from our own recent history? I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no surer emblem of entrenched, civic self-loathing than this sort of idiotic, short-sighted, architectural cannibalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-86473382345243060642008-02-27T08:04:00.000-06:002008-02-27T08:04:00.000-06:00lol. Neither of your links works either. We may ...lol. Neither of your links works either. We may both need remedial cyber help.<BR/><BR/>The Wisconsin study is worth reading: it takes the same Census data you cited (or, like me, tried to) and considers the ratios of blacks and whites living in cities by block (i.e., the way people actually live), rather than by Census Tract.<BR/><BR/>The point of the study is to help communities better understand themselves.<BR/><BR/>There is no denying that parts of the City look like most of the county: largely segregated in both housing and business. However, it is an equally important error to deny that many residential parts of the City are integrated by race.<BR/><BR/><BR/>PEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-54550977653415576822008-02-26T21:29:00.000-06:002008-02-26T21:29:00.000-06:00PublicEye, why so unpleasantly ad hominem? As a p...PublicEye, why so unpleasantly ad hominem? As a paid public relations guru for the city, don't you want to make nice with the voters? <BR/><BR/>It is hardly telling a "whopper" to mention a Census Bureau report (CENSR-3, pg 68) while arguing that demonizing north city is part of a long-standing racist narrative.<BR/><BR/>I know the city gov't wants to refute negative press by attacking methodologies, and I can't say that it is a bad approach. I'm forever explaining to people that the city crime rankings are massively unfair when you rank tiny little urban core of St Louis City without its suburbs against the entire sprawling Dallas metro area. <BR/><BR/>But why attack me, a staunch city supporter, while I am out there staunchly supporting the city? Why not just say, hey, I know the study you mention and I have something to bring to your attention. I'd engage. I'd get into the fine print with you.<BR/><BR/>As an aside, are you really arguing that the population of north city is not largely African-American? If that were the case, I would expect the city to be ending the shamefully racially congruent conservation district program, or at least extending equal protection under the building code to the kids of the 5th Ward... any time now. (Still waiting!)<BR/><BR/>And your link don't work. <BR/>Here ya go... mine first and then yours.<BR/>http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/housing_patterns/papertoc.html<BR/>http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/integration/QuinnCensus.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-73832033574109506062008-02-26T19:30:00.000-06:002008-02-26T19:30:00.000-06:00It is disappointing that Barbara would use a post ...It is disappointing that Barbara would use a post that includes the phrase "check your facts" to pass along a major whopper of her own.<BR/><BR/>Her statement "Please be aware that St Louis is the 4th most segregated city in the nation" is simply not true.<BR/><BR/>While there is plenty of work to be done to make the City more diverse, St. Louis is actually the fifth most <I>integrated</I> large city in the country.<BR/><BR/>According to a block-by-block analysis of fifty of the country's cities, St. Louis finished behind only Virginia Beach, Charlotte, Nashville, and Jacksonville -- and just ahead of Memphis, Columbus, Indianapols, Minneapolis, and Milwaukee.<BR/><BR/>Check your facts?<BR/><BR/>Here's a link.<BR/><BR/>http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/integration/integration.pdf<BR/><BR/>PEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-59210245526734789472008-02-25T22:13:00.000-06:002008-02-25T22:13:00.000-06:00And then it needs to jump out of the blogs and ont...And then it needs to jump out of the blogs and onto the public scene with some real visibility. Defining some focus areas and generating interest in competitions or other means of publicity-garnering events would be a real start.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-88364978974229771912008-02-25T21:46:00.000-06:002008-02-25T21:46:00.000-06:00One problem is that there is not an effective city...One problem is that there is not an effective city plan. If there were, then any questions about the building would be answered.<BR/>The same type of building should replace the one that is already there. <BR/>If you are designing a city to be energy efficient, to become green; the ability to walk becomes important. Close spaces on the street are exactly what should be on this corner. Parking should go behind or perhaps the street. <BR/>This type of structure also uses less energy than stand alone structures. <BR/>The city has no philosophy and no leadership in this regard.<BR/>This and other blogs supply that philosophy and by extension the leadership. Perhaps the major function of the blogs is to fulfill that philosophy. Writing and speaking cause change, that is democracy correct?<BR/>And when you have better ideas, then change has a direction and meaning. In this case the city has no ideas so the leadership position is very easy to attain. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me at this juncture in our history we should be debating how to create "green cities".<BR/>If the city government will not take a leadership role, then the blogs should step up and fill the void.GMichaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17306482392151340818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-23829341793106736542008-02-25T17:27:00.000-06:002008-02-25T17:27:00.000-06:00I've got no argument with anyone who understands t...I've got no argument with anyone who understands the point of my posts, and I again apologize if anyone is offended by a characterization, but please know that I'm referring to the growing wave of senseless destruction of architectural history and not the residents who remain, or who wish to see the renaissance flourish. I believe the argument is a good one, and is well-placed, but while I offer an apology for a few words I would rather focus on the point of the argument with respect to the discussion. Clearly, my use of those two words has not set well with at least a couple of those who've bothered to post in this thread, but I'm going to assume we can move beyond that. I would be honored to have you conduct a tour of these areas of north city, as I have read your posts and believe you have an insight that I could never have as an 'outsider'. I'm not sure that simply ignoring those who post as "Anonymous" is what I'll do, but appreciate the distance this discussion thread has traveled. I'm truly encouraged.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-68343649280318847662008-02-25T16:01:00.000-06:002008-02-25T16:01:00.000-06:00I love blogging!I love blogging!Doug Duckworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15684467055184767166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-3636360086084155882008-02-25T15:45:00.000-06:002008-02-25T15:45:00.000-06:00John W, I'm a northsider and appreciate your suppo...John W, I'm a northsider and appreciate your support for the area, in that you advocate people working together for change, and you clearly see the potential for adaptive reuse, and you support the renaissance which is slowly spreading across the north side. <BR/><BR/>But, when you say things like "forlorn wasteland" and "violent crime", you buy into and perpetuate a narrative that others use to devalue and demean the entire city north of Delmar. Forlorn means hopeless, I get it... but north city has many hopeful supporters. Wasteland means nasty, I get it... you really want to call my home nasty? You sound like a nice person, so I doubt it. <BR/><BR/>Check your facts. The northside is no more violent overall than the south. CWE is 10x more dangerous than the next-most dangerous neighborhood citywide. Soulard & downtown are also way up there in terms of muggings, etc, simply because of their economic success and presence of bars, tipsy folks and wallets with cash in them.<BR/><BR/>Please be aware that St Louis is the 4th most segregated city in the nation and Delmar/MLK is the defacto color line. When you buy into these narratives, you have to remember that they are racist narratives and check your facts before you get drawn into a storyline that you surely do not support.<BR/><BR/>For instance, we have a prominent and wealthy St Charles developer going around and saying things like "we need to bulldoze the ghetto". Ya know, once you herd the unwanted minority out of sight, it is easy to destroy their homes and drive them away. Or his good buddy Peter Kinder echoing the "bulldoze" sentiment and saying things like "looks like Dresden after WW2". Ummm, no. We are not the enemy and we are not defeated. A third line I have heard too many times is "time to run the n* out of Germantown". My heart just about stopped. For god's sake, this isn't Forsyth County, GA, and in any case, it is 2008!!! Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.<BR/><BR/>This has been going on for a long long time up here. Demonize and demo. Drive the hope away with a sharp stick. Talk about violent crime and FUBAR public schools as though those things don't exist south of MLK. Tell the rehabbers they are crazy people who can't figure out a budget. Decline to sell car insurance north of Delmar, in a neighborhood with better crime stats than St Louis Hills. Tell the kids to buy their first home "south of Delmar and west of Kingsway". My favorite... "people don't live there"... what am I, a carpenter ant? Guess what, real human-type people live here and WANT to live here.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the existing northside community wants development -- new housing, shops, and lot of church parking ;-) But, respectful development WITH the residents welcome, not racial cleansing. Mill Creek Valley... the Team 4 Plan... Paul McKee... I am sure you want to distance yourself from that distasteful narrative.<BR/><BR/>If you would like a tour of northside neighborhoods drop me a line, I'd be happy to meet you at Crown Candy, buy you an ice cream cone, and show you around north city, from ONSL to Baden to Fountain Park. It will take your breath away to spend an hour in on the northside and then cross Delmar heading south. <BR/><BR/>I'm serious... take the tour!<BR/><BR/>Oh, and don't feed the "Anonymous" concern trolls, it just encourages them.<BR/><BR/>Barbara Manzara<BR/>3202 N 19th St<BR/>314-238-4032<BR/>manzarbe@hotmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-8485334556766355882008-02-25T15:40:00.000-06:002008-02-25T15:40:00.000-06:00Anonymous- How many times do you need to read post...Anonymous- How many times do you need to read posts that unequivocally state that whatever layer of subsidy or protective measure can be used should be used to save historic architecture before you get the idea? Urbanists are not posting in these blogs trying to make the argument that rehabilitation of historic architecture compares dollar for dollar with newly constructed buildings in the eyes of profit-seeking developers. If the owners of landmark buildings or otherwise historic architecture cannot make the numbers pencil out themselves, then they should try to sell the property to other parties willing to try. As this is a capitalist country bent on so-called free market consumerism, property owners have the ultimate right to decide the direction of the development of their property within the confines of zoning and building codes, or any other ordained municipal restrictions, so it's up to urbanists to make the compelling argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-45688396227769674882008-02-25T13:17:00.000-06:002008-02-25T13:17:00.000-06:00Wow, anonymous is gettin' schooled!Wow, anonymous is gettin' schooled!Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064334959354090683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-91976934625875794742008-02-25T12:27:00.000-06:002008-02-25T12:27:00.000-06:00Doug,You're still not answering the basic question...Doug,<BR/><BR/>You're still not answering the basic question. Forget all the fancy government programs.<BR/><BR/>How much are rents in this area? How much is the cost of rehab?<BR/><BR/>Do rents justify the rehab? If not, then start layering in subsidy.<BR/><BR/>Let's start with rents. Anyone know how much an office or storefront at this location rents for per month?<BR/><BR/>If you want to influence the development process, you have to speak the language of developers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-55353378984088352382008-02-25T12:10:00.000-06:002008-02-25T12:10:00.000-06:00So they couldn't secure some tax abatement or even...So they couldn't secure some tax abatement or even a TIF for the rehab? Obviously the answer to this is yes. We issue TIF's for Walgreens. I wonder if they considered this in their estimations? <BR/><BR/>Moreover, I do wonder why the Mt. Cabanne/Raymond Place District did not extend to the other side of Kingshighway? To have an historic district terminate, and have one side of a commercial intersection covered and the other not, is rather odd. If the other side, at least a few parcels east, was in the district, then State and Federal Historic Tax Credits would be available.Doug Duckworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15684467055184767166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-61985807847710797432008-02-25T11:25:00.000-06:002008-02-25T11:25:00.000-06:00Doug,It may not look like a shell, but it probably...Doug,<BR/><BR/>It may not <I>look</I> like a shell, but it probably needs a gut rehab.<BR/><BR/>You can't tell from the outside. It's over a hundred years old, and has been underutilized for how long?<BR/><BR/>It's worn out, tired, and in need of major work.<BR/><BR/>The Robertses don't do the labor themselves; they pay for it, probably at union scale.<BR/><BR/>Run the numbers, cost versus return, then say whether the investment makes sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-22390026502277637432008-02-25T10:28:00.000-06:002008-02-25T10:28:00.000-06:00Justify the rebab? The building isn't some shell ...Justify the rebab? The building isn't some shell and could probably be easily fixed. Regardless, the minor problem isn't cause to demolish the entire building. If they don't want to fix it then stabilize it and sell it. I mean come on, at least put up a for sale sign and see what happens. Why hastily rush for demolition? That's negligence.Doug Duckworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15684467055184767166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-65855909740720530552008-02-25T06:54:00.000-06:002008-02-25T06:54:00.000-06:00Michael,The question was not whether or the critic...Michael,<BR/><BR/>The question was not whether or the critics are rehabbing buildings, but rather, whether they've ever analyzed the financial requirements to do so. <BR/><BR/>It's one thing to recommend historic rehab for social reasons, it's another to look at the total picture.<BR/><BR/>Also, while the Roberts may not be able to financially justify the rehab of the Page and Kingshighway building, they are building new streetscapes of green homes for homebuyers in North City.<BR/><BR/>And, let's remember, they were the ones to reopen the old Sears store on North Kingshighway, one of the first major rehabs of a commercial building in North City.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-91848847896844850792008-02-24T21:00:00.000-06:002008-02-24T21:00:00.000-06:00Here comes the old gambit of discrediting critics ...Here comes the old gambit of discrediting critics raising cultural and architectural issues because they can't buy and rehab every building in the city themselves. The posters here can discuss their qualifications if they please; I happen to know most of them and think Anonymous may be surprised at the depth of these folks' involvement in northside rehab work.<BR/><BR/>Who cares how close this building is to Old North? You know what neighborhood is south of here? The Central West End! In terms of proximity to highly-valued rehab neighborhoods, this building is doing better where it is than if it were on Florissant Avenue.<BR/><BR/>Sure, developers follow the market. But guess who usually discovers the market first? Critics, analysts and others spotting trends. People exult the abiulity of developers but don't want to admit that developers often move too slow to be innovative. The historic rehab tax credit has made many millionaires, but its early proponents were those pesky preservationists, not real estate developers who were busy rationalising the continued demolition of downtown buildings now worth tens of millions of dollars. Preservationists advocated for the credit because it was good policy, and developers eventually responded by using the credit to great extent. Both sides got they wanted -- but both would have had far less (fewer buildings and fewer profits) if the preservationists had not organized and made the case for a new law. <BR/><BR/>While the Roberts brothers certainly have done good work -- much of it historic preservation work nowadays -- they are limited by the realm of the possible. They don't risk money left and right following ideas. Nor should they. But they should -- and probably do -- appreciate the insight and imagination offered by critics and others who dare to dream about transcending the limits of "why?" to get to "why not?"<BR/><BR/>Developers and bureaucrats are conservative, and often try to shoot down new ideas. Our city's political system leads to many occasions where a John or a Doug is told to get lost. But I don't even have enough fingers to count the times when the same bureaucrats are using the "unrealistic" ideas of the critics years later. After all, there is such a poverty of imagination in our political system that anyone wishing to make deep change need only repeat herself for awhile before someone in power will just take the idea and run with it. Then we start to see progress.Michael R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17262548806079447404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-59572414681027401002008-02-24T20:42:00.000-06:002008-02-24T20:42:00.000-06:00Lovingly not singing from the pages of the same ur...Lovingly not singing from the pages of the same urbanist's songbook, I ask the question, have any of you ever analyzed the financial feasibility of rehabbing a *severely* dilapidated building in North St. Louis, especially one miles away from Old North (like this one)? <BR/><BR/>It's easy to blame aldermen and the Robertses for not spending their money, but, hey, they're are invested in North City.<BR/><BR/>Most people aren't. So let's malign the Robertses. Yeah, *that's* productive! Not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-73787015097927989972008-02-24T14:31:00.000-06:002008-02-24T14:31:00.000-06:00Amen. I believe there are enough of us to get the ...Amen. I believe there are enough of us to get the word out, and from what I've been reading on these great interlinked blogs there is no shortage of passion and great ideas. A well-organized group of urbanists can effectively mobilize where a target work area is clearly defined and recognizable, and from this, actionable plans will form. The Baltimore tax credit program provides a great example of what could be a tangible goal for this city, for instance, and coupling that with visible preservation and new development proposals from urbanists, some real measurable results are within range. Proposing something, even something purely hypothetical, that could show the value of historic architecure to revitalization effort would be a strong start. Focusing on the decimated neighborhood of the near north side in the 5th Ward as a target work area is such an example. Demonstrating how the existing but threatened buildings at the corner of Page and Kingshighway could establish a beginning or end point for block infill, using the cues provided by the architectural language of these great artifacts is another example. There are many urbanists, despite full, busy lives, that would not only be willing to contribute to such efforts but would in fact revel in such an opportunity. What seems alarmingly clear is that doing nothing will ensure the erasure of what architectural history still remains, and likely any real chance some of these neighborhoods will have at attracting new commerce and homebuyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-29698135407531681262008-02-24T13:23:00.000-06:002008-02-24T13:23:00.000-06:00An alderman with leadership wouldn't allow the Bui...An alderman with leadership wouldn't allow the Building Division to demolish this wonderful building. <BR/><BR/>An alderman with fortitude would convince the Robert's Brothers to fix the building or sell to someone who will.<BR/><BR/>Aldermen are involved in real estate deals all the time. They have the capacity to intervene in such a decision like this one. However they don't see buildings like these as worthy of such efforts, especially when they are owned by the powerful Robert's Brothers. Rather it is politically safe to argue that the Robert's Brothers negligence is their right as property owners. <BR/><BR/>With such leadership, we can expect every major intersection on the North Side to be reduced to vacant lots or strip malls. Once occupied and viable buildings will be razed. And I shouldn't criticize aldermen? Laughable!<BR/><BR/>The entire system failed long ago. The outcomes are obvious.Doug Duckworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15684467055184767166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-8483533029785248722008-02-24T11:37:00.000-06:002008-02-24T11:37:00.000-06:00criticism is appropriate if deserved, but I think ...criticism is appropriate if deserved, but I think describing the criticism as endless is just as broad a brush stroke as you claim the criticism is. I'm really confused as to why you would take up issue with semantic nuances in posts rather than discussing the principal issue of the thread. Are you an alderperson? Can you personally vouge for the actions and effectiveness of alderpersons? If not, I'm sure that you have any more argumentative foundation than I do. This issue seems to be about the unfortunate trend of demolition of architectural history, and I'm not sure why the discussion should be diverted to measuring the validity of a descriptor used in a post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-16495662599877213052008-02-24T10:12:00.000-06:002008-02-24T10:12:00.000-06:00There are parts of north city which are indeed was...There are parts of north city which are indeed wastelands. There are also parts which are strong communities.<BR/><BR/>Things are much more complicated - and localized - than the broad brush impressions so often gained through media or blog exposure.<BR/><BR/>Not knowing alderman, then generalizing re. the poor representation being provided is another such broad brush reference.<BR/><BR/>Most alderman are hard working, popular, individuals. They need our support to be more effective.<BR/><BR/>Criticizing them endlessly merely reduces our own voice and urban usefulness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-80909170411232706112008-02-24T00:09:00.000-06:002008-02-24T00:09:00.000-06:00Though I don't know much about the alderpersons in...Though I don't know much about the alderpersons in (any part of the city, admittedly), it certainly seems as if the neighborhoods of north city are without effective representation. The allowance of the brick rustling alone says that the situation is one of resignation. With violent crime, lack of quality public education and high unemployment to contend with, it's obviously not without reason that historic preservation of existing vacant buildings is not a top priority. Outside groups working with inside community members to take up some of the work of preservation and revitalization is likely more expedient and effective than relying on those currently frying bigger fish. Of course, this assumes that the work being conducted by alderpersons in these struggling neighborhoods is focused on the crises mentioned above. I thought I'd just point out a few word definitions to clarify my use in previous posts. Please do not blame me for Mirriam-Webster's definition of terms that fairly apply to north city. Please read, from Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary:<BR/><BR/>Main Entry: for·lorn Pronunciation: \fər-ˈlȯrn, fȯr-\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English forloren, from Old English, past participle of forlēosan to lose, from for- + lēosan to lose — more at lose Date: before 12th century <BR/>1 a: bereft, forsaken left quite forlorn of hope b: sad and lonely because of isolation or desertion : desolate a forlorn landscape2: being in poor condition : miserable, wretched forlorn tumbledown buildings 3: nearly hopeless a forlorn attempt <BR/>synonyms see alone <BR/>— for·lorn·ly adverb <BR/>— for·lorn·ness \-ˈlȯrn-nəs\ noun <BR/><BR/><BR/>Main Entry: waste·land Pronunciation: \ˈwāst-ˌland also -lənd\ Function: noun Date: 14th century <BR/>1 : barren or uncultivated land a desert wasteland 2 : an ugly often devastated or barely inhabitable place or area 3 : something (as a way of life) that is spiritually and emotionally arid and unsatisfyingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8826793.post-81240810526331210922008-02-23T22:39:00.000-06:002008-02-23T22:39:00.000-06:00Presupposing some areas are a "wasteland," it is o...Presupposing some areas are a "wasteland," it is only so because of aldermen who are wholly bereft of innovation and leadership, bordering on dereliction of duty. What I see is a fundamental failure of local government.Doug Duckworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15684467055184767166noreply@blogger.com